Lisa, To me there are at least two different scenarios implicit in your excellent commentary. The macro story is the harm we are all suffering because low information voters weren't paying attention and a bunch of voters stayed home. Although an interesting question, I'm not sure forgiveness is where we should focus We need to do what we can to protect ourselves and take action to turn the tide. The second scenario concerns the more micro version of one-to-one abuse. Repentance calls into play a bunch of religious concepts. The real problem is the case where the abuse continues and continues. It doesn't matter that a person says they are sorry and just keeps going with the same abusive behavior. The only answer that worked for me was to get in my own boat and row as far away as I could. I'm sorry it didn't work out like a Hallmark movie, but we each need to protect our own welfare. If you are facing damaged people who keep harming you, no amount of "forgiveness" on your part will change their behavior. Stay strong!
Yes, there are indeed two different scenarios. The personal abuse is probably what triggered my strong reaction to the video about forgiving MAGA. But for me, it all fits together, given my religious background.
Interestingly, repentance without the religious concepts just means “to turn away.” Very different from what I used to think. If people don’t turn away from their bad behavior, I’ve learned it’s better to run away from them.
Forgiveness is easy when you stepped on a toe. Forgiveness is a PROCESS (sometimes decades) for abusive behavior (mental, emotional, and spiritual), rape, incest, murder... Nobody has a right to tell anyone you how should forgive and what your timetable is.
I think forgiveness is about letting go of the anger we hold inside ourselves against our transgressors rather than forgiving them for their transgressions or forgetting what they have done. Why should we let them off the hook or place ourselves in further danger by granting them immunity for their offences? We can't change them. We can only change ourselves. They are beyond our control. But let there transgressions be their problem, not ours. As survivors of abuse, we grieve the loss of the person we might have become, the life we might have lived without these negative influences. Grief is not something you get over or move on from. It is something that you grow around. We carry our grief though our lives. It is part of who we are. If someone in your life is currently abusing you, you must put distance between yourself and them, no matter how close they are to you. Do not turn the other cheek. Run.
I just watched the video you mentioned, quoting your comment and responding to it. She speaks from a very judgemental perspective. I don't believe shame ever has a positive place in our relations with each other. Who are we to be so judgemental to say we are glad that you are no longer wrong and welcome to the right side. How dismissive and arrogant that is. Why must we judge how other people see the world. Why can't we build on what we have in common rather than what sets us apart.
People often say they don't understand how people could vote ever have voted for Trump, but they are usually judging him by his moral character and shaking their heads finding him morally reprehensible. I personally find him the least qualified and most morally corrupt person ever elected to this high office. But I don't think the vast majority of Trump supporters look at it in those terms. They are believers. Believers don't need facts. They have faith. They believe without any proof and against common sense, that Trump will do what he says he will do. That he will make their lives better. That he will bring back prosperity. That he will stop what they see as the negative influences on their lives. They don't want highly educated people telling them that more of the same will eventually make things work out better than they have for much of their lives.
It's as if the two camps want the same things but are speaking different languages and are wrapped up in completely different paradigms. This makes taking to each other very difficult. And perhaps they have a point. Is government not corrupt? Are many people not fed up with how things are and the course we have been on which has led us to this moment. I don't think we need to judge each other. I think we need to have compassion for each other. We are not right or wrong. We are just coming at this thing from different perspectives.
As prices rise in the coming months and things get worse, not better as promised, there is likely going to be a lot of buyer's remorse of political choices made. But our anger turned towards each other is not going to solve anything. Systemic change is required and has been required for many years. There are no simple answers. Those with privilege and power both inherited and earned, will face these challenges from different perspectives and levels of frustration. But we need to remember our humanity. We all basically want the same things. Greed, corruption and the disparity of wealth are core issues. We need to tone down the anger and recognize the pain and sorrow underpinning modern society.
Thank you for saying her statements felt judgmental. I tend to think everything is my fault, so I appreciate the second opinion. It's ironic that someone trying to promote harmony comes across as so adversarial.
I agree with your thoughtful comments. There is way too much "us vs. them" when it comes to politics. The problems in the U.S. are DEEP. I'm an Independent, as I don't think either party has the answers. I honestly see problems and hubris on both sides. Power and position are more important than people.
We have got to find ways to work together, or we are all in big trouble. I truly appreciate your comments, John.
Lisa, To me there are at least two different scenarios implicit in your excellent commentary. The macro story is the harm we are all suffering because low information voters weren't paying attention and a bunch of voters stayed home. Although an interesting question, I'm not sure forgiveness is where we should focus We need to do what we can to protect ourselves and take action to turn the tide. The second scenario concerns the more micro version of one-to-one abuse. Repentance calls into play a bunch of religious concepts. The real problem is the case where the abuse continues and continues. It doesn't matter that a person says they are sorry and just keeps going with the same abusive behavior. The only answer that worked for me was to get in my own boat and row as far away as I could. I'm sorry it didn't work out like a Hallmark movie, but we each need to protect our own welfare. If you are facing damaged people who keep harming you, no amount of "forgiveness" on your part will change their behavior. Stay strong!
Yes, there are indeed two different scenarios. The personal abuse is probably what triggered my strong reaction to the video about forgiving MAGA. But for me, it all fits together, given my religious background.
Interestingly, repentance without the religious concepts just means “to turn away.” Very different from what I used to think. If people don’t turn away from their bad behavior, I’ve learned it’s better to run away from them.
Thank for commenting.
Forgiveness is easy when you stepped on a toe. Forgiveness is a PROCESS (sometimes decades) for abusive behavior (mental, emotional, and spiritual), rape, incest, murder... Nobody has a right to tell anyone you how should forgive and what your timetable is.
Yes, exactly. It can cause more harm. Thank you, Pamela.
I think forgiveness is about letting go of the anger we hold inside ourselves against our transgressors rather than forgiving them for their transgressions or forgetting what they have done. Why should we let them off the hook or place ourselves in further danger by granting them immunity for their offences? We can't change them. We can only change ourselves. They are beyond our control. But let there transgressions be their problem, not ours. As survivors of abuse, we grieve the loss of the person we might have become, the life we might have lived without these negative influences. Grief is not something you get over or move on from. It is something that you grow around. We carry our grief though our lives. It is part of who we are. If someone in your life is currently abusing you, you must put distance between yourself and them, no matter how close they are to you. Do not turn the other cheek. Run.
A very sensible response. Thank you, John.
I just watched the video you mentioned, quoting your comment and responding to it. She speaks from a very judgemental perspective. I don't believe shame ever has a positive place in our relations with each other. Who are we to be so judgemental to say we are glad that you are no longer wrong and welcome to the right side. How dismissive and arrogant that is. Why must we judge how other people see the world. Why can't we build on what we have in common rather than what sets us apart.
People often say they don't understand how people could vote ever have voted for Trump, but they are usually judging him by his moral character and shaking their heads finding him morally reprehensible. I personally find him the least qualified and most morally corrupt person ever elected to this high office. But I don't think the vast majority of Trump supporters look at it in those terms. They are believers. Believers don't need facts. They have faith. They believe without any proof and against common sense, that Trump will do what he says he will do. That he will make their lives better. That he will bring back prosperity. That he will stop what they see as the negative influences on their lives. They don't want highly educated people telling them that more of the same will eventually make things work out better than they have for much of their lives.
It's as if the two camps want the same things but are speaking different languages and are wrapped up in completely different paradigms. This makes taking to each other very difficult. And perhaps they have a point. Is government not corrupt? Are many people not fed up with how things are and the course we have been on which has led us to this moment. I don't think we need to judge each other. I think we need to have compassion for each other. We are not right or wrong. We are just coming at this thing from different perspectives.
As prices rise in the coming months and things get worse, not better as promised, there is likely going to be a lot of buyer's remorse of political choices made. But our anger turned towards each other is not going to solve anything. Systemic change is required and has been required for many years. There are no simple answers. Those with privilege and power both inherited and earned, will face these challenges from different perspectives and levels of frustration. But we need to remember our humanity. We all basically want the same things. Greed, corruption and the disparity of wealth are core issues. We need to tone down the anger and recognize the pain and sorrow underpinning modern society.
Thank you for saying her statements felt judgmental. I tend to think everything is my fault, so I appreciate the second opinion. It's ironic that someone trying to promote harmony comes across as so adversarial.
I agree with your thoughtful comments. There is way too much "us vs. them" when it comes to politics. The problems in the U.S. are DEEP. I'm an Independent, as I don't think either party has the answers. I honestly see problems and hubris on both sides. Power and position are more important than people.
We have got to find ways to work together, or we are all in big trouble. I truly appreciate your comments, John.